In the previous Conversation, a point was brought up that religion and science is not an either/or but a both/and. While I find this kind of thinking optimistic. I can’t help but disagree. Religion asks us to believe in several things that don’t meld with the natural world and directly contradict what science has proven is possible. Seven day creation, spontaneous human/animal creation, whole world flood, parting sea, walking on water, just to name a few.
Religion, like philosophy, is a good way for people to explain certain things to themselves, why you feel bad, why you feel love, but science can ask these questions too. With science though we are able to test, replicate and delve deeper into reasons of why. To me as an atheist, this line of evidence is more convincing than “god did it.” Many Christians I find are firm believers in the non-overlapping magisteria, saying that science can’t say anything about religion and vice-versa. But when religion make claims on the physical world, like those of the bible, or that intercessory prayer works as a healer, science should be able to test that.
This isn’t my saying but one I’ve adopted, I try to believe as many true things and as little false things as possible. Science is the most reliable way to find truth, and believing false things can be dangerous. Like when parents refuse medical attention for their children, replacing it with prayer, or costing valuable time in stem-cell research. It’s like the discussion of love we had (see comments on The Conversation: In The Beginning). There may be more to love than science can explain, but there is no evidence of something more, and I’m not sure what the reasons are to need anything more.
-Jesse Oates
RESPONSE
I would like to address the initial comment that religion, (I will use faith) asks us to believe things that contradict what science has proven possible. To be clear, the claim is that faith asks us to believe things that science has proven as impossible. I would argue that this is not the case. Although many people feel many ways about the creation story in Genesis, or the parting of the Red Sea in Exodus, and miraculous healing found throughout the New Testament, none of these ask us to disregard what science has proven.
Science has been able to explain an extraordinary amount to us about the state of our species, world and universe. The premise of scientific research is an attempt to find a natural answers and explanations to various occurrences. I tend to argue for the sake of a supernatural explanation, and science does not accept, in most cases, the existence of the supernatural. While science has proven and provided insight into many natural cause/effect relationships, science has not disproved the existence of the supernatural. So to say that science has disproved seven day creation, spontaneous human/animal creation, whole world flood, parting sea, walking on water, is to assume the existence of only natural forces.
Science shows us what we can understand naturally. Faith shows us what we can understand about the supernatural, a Creator God, a spirit that reveals the power of divinity, etc. The life of Jesus was all about God becoming flesh and blood, walking around in our world, to reveal the nature of our Creator. Perhaps this is why so many miracles were recorded in the Gospels; because there was no natural explanation for what was going on with this guy named Jesus from Nazareth.
I love science, and I love what science can explain about our natural world. I also believe we must turn to the one who created the natural world in order to understand our existence.
-Sam
Alright Creating Culture friends, there you have it. Continue the conversation – we would love your thoughts.
I’m seriously the first person to comment? I’m gonna try and make it short though, because I don’t want us to bring in too many points that can’t all be fully addressed.
I would like to respond to Sam’s statement: “While science has proven and provided insight into many natural cause/effect relationships, science has not disproved the existence of the supernatural.” How can you prove the non-existence of something? Besides, who has the burden of proof here anyway? Science isn’t making claims on anything related to ghosts or el chupacabra or UFOs. True, science can say what something is not, (Crop circles are not from alien spacecraft, but they are from dudes with some ropes and a board) but that does not mean that science can prove the impossibility of alien spacecraft. Also, wouldn’t scientifically proving the existence of the supernatural undermine the point of blind faith? Not to sound like my BFF Ethan, but most Christians don’t seem to be looking to science for answers anyway, and if things were explained to them they would just excuse them away and still find a reason not believe.
Okay I couldn’t help but have this thought while reading the Conversation, “What if God created Science?” Hear me out…I’ve often wondered maybe this God created evolution? What if this God created the Big Bang?
There are times when I look to science for answers but there are also times when I have to lean on my faith (which has weathered years of ups and downs).
At the end of the day there are still aspects of my life that neither science nor religion explain…and I’m okay with it.
Keep the Conversation going!
If you believe the creation story as it is in the bible, and believe the young earth theory, then yes, you are disregarding what science has proven to be true. The mountains of evidence that show the age of the earth is 4 billion years old, and that evolution is the process used to move from single cell to more and more complex structures show that the first story in the bible can NOT be literally true.
We do not need to assume the existence of only natural forces, we are able to study and understand natural forces. Religion (Faith) assumes supernatural forces without evidence to corroborate claims.
It’s great that you love science, but its hard for me to fathom that you can accept some parts of science, but throw out parts that do not mesh with your religion.
To Steve,
If God created evolution, the big bang, and divinely inspired the bible than he purposely threw people off his path. If he is all-knowing he knew such evidence against a god would be enough to make plenty of people (including myself) doubt his existence. And if this god sends people to eternal damnation for not having faith then he is a very very evil.
Nikel:
“wouldn’t scientifically proving the existence of the supernatural undermine the point of blind faith? ”
What is “the point” of blind faith, in your opinion?
“Christians don’t seem to be looking to science for answers anyway, and if things were explained to them they would just excuse them away and still find a reason not believe.”
I don’t agree even a little with this. Are you perhaps applying a blanket statement over all who who follow Jesus?
“Religion (Faith) assumes supernatural forces without evidence to corroborate claims.”
I have seen with my own eyes a woman who had polio and hadn’t walked on her own during her adult life, receive prayer and walk away without her crutches. And with my own eyes, saw a couple who each had a different type of cancer prayed over. They went in to the doctor and were told that the cancer (rather advanced) was gone, and there was no explanation. Do I simply dismiss this as coincidence because not everyone receives a supernatural healing when prayed for? Is this not evidence of supernatural forces?
The first two paragraphs were for Nikel so I’m going to leave them alone for her to respond to, but the last part I feel I needed to address.
I do not doubt that you did indeed witness the two occurrences you described, but did you know these people before the magical healing? If a couple were to have cancer suddenly disappear without a trace shouldn’t this have been bigger news? Did they just see one doctor who didn’t have an explanation or was it multiple doctors in different fields of study? Was it studied further? Is there literature anywhere about this miraculous healing? If I hear hoof beats I don’t immediately think zebras, I think horses. If I hear of a faith healing to the caliber you are speaking I don’t immediately think miracle, I think Charlatan, because this is where the evidence leads.
This steps away from the science vs. faith argument but these acts do say a lot about the god you believe in, does it not. That this god would rather save one women with polio than say, stop the holocaust, the inquisition, the crusades, rwanda, darfur, stop human trafficking, etc. etc. etc. You must see how silly this is? That your god would rather show off and play parlor tricks then do anything substantial in the world. I can’t comment on Polio but considering there is a myriad of cases of cancer going into spontaneous remission, this miracle happens quite often with perfectly good scientific understanding, now if your god started regrowing lost limbs, or doing things that break the laws of nature, that’s something to take interest in.
“Do I simply dismiss this as coincidence because not everyone receives a supernatural healing when prayed for? Is this not evidence of supernatural forces?”
These claims are not evidence. Evidence can be studied, reproduced, analyzed. I’m sorry but your word on such things is meaningless when it comes to science, just like my word would be. The studies that have been done on the healing power of prayer have been negative.
Shouldn’t these things be bigger news? Not necessarily, media doesn’t usually jump to cover a story such as these, to be quite honestly for this reason: “Did they just see one doctor who didn’t have an explanation or was it multiple doctors in different fields of study? Was it studied further? Is there literature anywhere about this miraculous healing? If I hear hoof beats I don’t immediately think zebras, I think horses. If I hear of a faith healing to the caliber you are speaking I don’t immediately think miracle, I think Charlatan, because this is where the evidence leads.”
As for God jumping in and out of our situations, I would say this. God gives us free will. Evil will happen, people will hurt and kill each other. It is then our place as the Church, to stand for the peacekeeping and reconciliation that Jesus preached. As Scripture says, Evil will be a part of our human nature until the second coming.
“The studies that have been done on the healing power of prayer have been negative”
Curious as to whether this really means negative, or maybe inconsistent.
You are right, it can’t be reproduced, because that is the difference between natural forces and supernatural forces.
Thoughts?
Phil Cooke, a Christian who works in media just posted this. Thought I would pass it along, see if it contributes to the conversation any.
http://www.philcooke.com/scientists_believe_in_God
I’m sorry, so the reason the media doesn’t cover stories like that is because there was no follow up or second opinions on what the possible reason for the recovery? That seems to be a compliment to the media who I feel is horrible at science reporting and would be right up their alley. Like the big news right now is the man who was in a coma for twenty-some years and is now typing on a computer saying that he’s been conscious the whole time. This is an obvious fraud, using facilitated communication has always been a fraud. And this story has been everywhere the last couple of days.
God gives us free-will but he is willing to cure somebody of their polio? It seems you are pushing contradictory ideas.
In science there is a difference between inconsistent and negative. The studies I have seen have been negative, which means to prove prayer works as a healing mechanism there had to be significant change between the people who have been prayed for and those who have not. And needless to say, there was not. There is a different between natural and supernatural forces and I’m trying to figure out if there is an ounce of actual evidence that anything supernatural actually exists in reality?
I could post about six different studies that show the decrease in supernatural belief with higher education, how the increase in disbelief within the higher echelons of scientists. But the number of scientists who believe or don’t believe have no sway on the argument I am making. But I think that Project Steve is the best argument of my case. http://ncse.com/taking-action/project-steve . It shows the overwhelming support of evolution as a fact which is in direct contradiction with the bible.
Supernatural belief and higher education is an interesting topic. Ben Stein’s documentary tackles that very topic, and addresses those with “the higher echelons of scientists” who were pushed out of their careers for believing in the supernatural, specifically intelligent design.
For the record, I don’t doubt evolution as a fact, but I do have many questions, such as the origin of species. It doesn’t all seem to jive.
As for evidence of the supernatural, again I wonder about the difference between inconsistent and negative. It seems as if anything points to supernatural, it becomes an anomaly, keeping it and those who don’t believe in the supernatural, at a safe distance from deviating from the accepted scientific principles. All the while, the claim is being made that even though it defies our scientific knowledge, surely it can’t be supernatural.
I am the first to admit here that I am the furthest thing from a scientist, and I don’t pretend to have the answers. I just appreciate the opportunity to engage in conversation and not be dismissed.
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This post was mentioned on Twitter by sammahlstadt: The second installment of The Conversation featuring the one and only @jesseryan1214 http://bit.ly/mjfBX – beautiful dialogue…
I will not discuss Expelled because it is the worst piece of dishonesty and horse crap(sorry for the language) I’ve ever seen. Not one thing Ben Stein says in that movie has ANY connection to the truth. See http://www.expelledexposed.com/.
I see what you are saying about the anomaly, but what I see happening is anomaly hunting, searching for things to fit into your faith. The big question I have is what gives you any idea that there exists anything supernatural? If you can’t study or reproduce it or falsify it, or analyze it why is there any reason to believe its real?
I agree entirely about the anomaly hunting. Unfortunately, people have a tendency to go looking for things, which doesn’t do anyone any good.
“What gives you any idea that there exists anything supernatural?” I would say, like many others, when you encounter God, there is something that happens that changes the game. There no longer needs to be empirical evidence.
In Scripture, there is a passage where Jesus says, “Unless you people see signs and wonders,” Jesus told him, “you will never believe.”
There is something about not needing data, a spread chart and a 16 point outline to dictate your faith. I believe that we tend to miss out on embracing the mystic in each of us because of our demand for proof.
This is an obvious point where we diverge. Why has god decided to change the game when you encounter god and not I? Why has he been silent and absent from so many that have sought him? If there does not need to be empirical evidence then why choose your god? Isn’t Zeus or Horus just as likely if you don’t need evidence? According to the bible there were lots of people who god revealed himself to, yet he expects everyone else to just blindly believe which I am not capable of doing. I believe we tend to miss out on the amazing reality around us when we possess blind faith.
I tend to think that the reason Scripture exists is to give us a history to look to, where we can see the things that God has done, including revealing himself to people in a supernatural way.
A ritual of the Hebrews was to build an altar when they encountered God, so that during the times he seemed silent or absent, we would know that he is still God and still there.
Also, a quick question: What about the person of Jesus (historically recorded) and his claims to be God? I am asking this genuinely, what do we do with Jesus in this discussion as far as God revealing himself to humans?
When you say that you “tend to think” it holds as much truth to me as saying I tend to think wind is created by dragons flapping their wings or that gravity is just invisible angels holding our feet to the ground and they will stay that way until some evidence is presented.
When I was talking about god revealing himself to people I was talking about the whole bible, including jesus, but I like this train of thought. What about Muhammad? Why are you not a Muslim? What about Joseph Smith? Why are you not a Mormon? If I made the claim that god had spoken to me would that be enough evidence for you to believe? This is what I’m talking about when I say I need evidence for the beliefs I have. If you don’t have a standard of evidence how do you decide what to believe?
Dealing with semantics, for “I tend to think” perhaps I should have said, I believe.
And…wait a minute, wind isn’t from dragons!?!?! JK :)
About other religions, Jesus made the comment in Scripture “I am” alluding to self-revelation of his divinity.
John 14:6 – “Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
Muhammad never claimed to be the son of God, but rather a prophet – we don’t worship Moses or Elijah or Samuel – same concept.
Joseph Smith claimed to be a modern-day prophet, same deal.
The reason I believe in Jesus is because I believe he meant what he said, and that he was telling the truth.
Jesus claimed to be god, just as Joseph Smith claimed to have spoken to god. I’m not seeing where one can decipher truth in either of the claims.
Do you believe that Muhammad was a prophet like Moses? If not, why?
Are you not a victim of circumstance where religion is concerned? If you were born in Isreal, would in not be likely that you would be a jew today? If you were born in other places of the Middle East, would you not likely be a muslim? If you were born in certain secluded places in say, Africa, and you would have never heard of Jesus, would you be a christian?
But this brings me to a bigger question I’ve been thinking about. During this conversation I’ve noticed that I am mostly on the offense and you, the defense. It leads me to believe that you don’t really feel the duty to prove the truth in god like many christians seem is imperative to their own salvation. I started this with questioning the cohesion of religion and science, and I’m a person who believes strongly in your (anyone’s) right to believe. Why this was a problem for me, was that there has been problems with pushing psuedoscience like intelligent design into public schools, starting government religious incentive programs, banning research (i.e. stem cell) on religious grounds. Are these battles you wish to fight using your religion as a catalyst?
jesseryan1215 says – ‘If you were born in other places of the Middle East, would you not likely be a muslim? If you were born in certain secluded places in say, Africa, and you would have never heard of Jesus, would you be a christian?’
Personally, everyone in my family was atheist/agnostic.. as was I as a child – I’m now a Christian..
Though it’s commonly understood that more often than not people take on the belief system of their family (A child in a Republican family is more likely to be Republican) this is more than anything a result of exposure, experience and a tendency towards trusting role models. I’m testament to the fact that it isn’t an across the board though and to reason that it is would be a gross exaggeration.
jesseryan1215.. as far as your earlier statement asking why God hasn’t revealed himself to you – and has for others.. there’s a couple answers I would have. One, I fully believe that those who seek God receive affirmation of his existence in their lives, my first inclination is to doubt the sincerity of your search – but that isn’t my place to judge or to know, we can only take you at your word. My second answer would be that in my case I actually had to mentally give up my search before I found God… I find this fact to be very intriguing, I literally had to reach a threshold where I said ‘there’s simply no proof’ and ended my search and then God saw it as the perfect opportunity to say ‘here I am’. It made me look all the more foolish, although I can’t necessarily say it’s the rule, just the way it happened for me – it caused it to have a greater impact. Have you ever noticed that you sometimes have to cease looking for something to find it? Sometimes it’s like our mind has been caught in a loop where we keep searching the same wrong places and ceasing the search frees us from that ineffective process. I repeat though, I don’t know that that is always the case, I do believe wholeheartedly though that all who search earnestly will find.
I believe in the quote I said, “would you not LIKELY be a muslim?” I understand that things get turned around and people may convert different ways. I grew up as a christian (one that maybe up to interpretation as I’ve recently discovered) and am now an atheist. I understand that it is not always the case. Of course you are not saying you grew up without being a christian and having never heard of Jesus and believed in him without having heard of him before, because that would be something to note.
As much as you could question my search for god, I could question your investigation onto whether your religion was true or not, or your claim that god revealed himself to you. Like I’ve said many times before, personal experience is not sufficient evidence for belief.
Your statement that you gave up looking and then he revealed himself to you to be quite interesting, especially since you had come to the conclusion that there simply was no proof. Of course there is still no proof that god exist, nor any proof that god doesn’t exist. But if you give up looking for the truth, it makes sense to me that you would come to a more comfortable, easy explanation for things you can’t explain. Giving up on the search for truth is something I cannot and will not ever do. Because finding a lost pen, and finding god are quite different, and sometimes when I give up looking for my pen, it stays lost.