Comments on: The Conversation: Worldviews http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/ faith : creativity Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:17:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Sam Mahlstadt http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/comment-page-1/#comment-248 Sam Mahlstadt Tue, 26 Jan 2010 07:06:52 +0000 http://www.sammahlstadt.com/?p=1130#comment-248 True. I don't discount the miraculous nature of someone experiencing heart change. My thought is that the church has placed a lot of emphasis on building a programmed moment where people make a decision for Christ in corporate gatherings, which is fueled by hype and emotion. Decisions based on those factors have a track record of not sticking. When we acknowledge the process that leads someone to conversion, and then fully embrace and understand what following Jesus means, I feel we will see more disciples than hands raised on Sunday mornings. "Go into all the world and make disciples." I hope that as my generation begins to take leadership roles, we will pour our effort into making disciples. Those who follow relentlessly after Jesus and are soaked in his Shalom. P.S. thanks for hanging around here! Appreciate the conversation. True. I don’t discount the miraculous nature of someone experiencing heart change. My thought is that the church has placed a lot of emphasis on building a programmed moment where people make a decision for Christ in corporate gatherings, which is fueled by hype and emotion. Decisions based on those factors have a track record of not sticking.
When we acknowledge the process that leads someone to conversion, and then fully embrace and understand what following Jesus means, I feel we will see more disciples than hands raised on Sunday mornings.
“Go into all the world and make disciples.”
I hope that as my generation begins to take leadership roles, we will pour our effort into making disciples. Those who follow relentlessly after Jesus and are soaked in his Shalom.
P.S. thanks for hanging around here! Appreciate the conversation.

]]> By: Jaime Kent http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/comment-page-1/#comment-247 Jaime Kent Tue, 26 Jan 2010 03:34:47 +0000 http://www.sammahlstadt.com/?p=1130#comment-247 I think we play with semantics to a degree. It's mostly a play on words and in some way we could come around to the same thought or page. Life is a process and people go through things, have conversations, debate theology, and salvation could be a culmination of events in ones life. One thing salvation will always be is miraculous. It is not an "exception to the rule" it is the rule. The only thing that could have taken me out of my circumstances of self was a miracle. Every instance in the Bible of salvation was a miracle. When we take the miraculous from salvation we bring God down to our level and that is a very secular, and not so biblical, take on God. We can intellectualize the miraculous to make God accessible and acceptable to the masses but His very words were "narrow is the path that leads to eternal life." We must guard our hearts as we navigate the process of revealing Jesus to the world. Sam, you know my heart and I am for you, believe in you and love you. I hope you know this is not me criticizing you, only challenging you to take this to the cross and weigh it against the word. I think we play with semantics to a degree. It’s mostly a play on words and in some way we could come around to the same thought or page. Life is a process and people go through things, have conversations, debate theology, and salvation could be a culmination of events in ones life. One thing salvation will always be is miraculous. It is not an “exception to the rule” it is the rule. The only thing that could have taken me out of my circumstances of self was a miracle. Every instance in the Bible of salvation was a miracle. When we take the miraculous from salvation we bring God down to our level and that is a very secular, and not so biblical, take on God. We can intellectualize the miraculous to make God accessible and acceptable to the masses but His very words were “narrow is the path that leads to eternal life.”
We must guard our hearts as we navigate the process of revealing Jesus to the world. Sam, you know my heart and I am for you, believe in you and love you. I hope you know this is not me criticizing you, only challenging you to take this to the cross and weigh it against the word.

]]> By: Sam Mahlstadt http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/comment-page-1/#comment-244 Sam Mahlstadt Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:38:38 +0000 http://www.sammahlstadt.com/?p=1130#comment-244 Jaime, While I agree that conversion happens in a moment, ultimately, it never occurs out of the blue. The issues you cite are instances of miraculous encounters, which may be the exception to the rule. Many times, when people in our culture decide to follow Jesus in their lives, it comes out of a process of some sort. That process leads to the moment where they make a decision to follow Christ. Sanctification is a never-ending process, I agree, but that process only happens once the first process that leads to conversion has taken place. Jaime,
While I agree that conversion happens in a moment, ultimately, it never occurs out of the blue. The issues you cite are instances of miraculous encounters, which may be the exception to the rule. Many times, when people in our culture decide to follow Jesus in their lives, it comes out of a process of some sort.
That process leads to the moment where they make a decision to follow Christ. Sanctification is a never-ending process, I agree, but that process only happens once the first process that leads to conversion has taken place.

]]> By: Jaime Kent http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/comment-page-1/#comment-243 Jaime Kent Sat, 23 Jan 2010 01:28:59 +0000 http://www.sammahlstadt.com/?p=1130#comment-243 Ok, I might want to play a little bit on the other side here my friend. You lay claim to a "process" for conversion but give no biblical backing. I can site several instances throughout the new testament that point the conversion to a moment not a process. The lame man in front of the Temple, the woman at the well, Paul on the road to Damascus just to mention a few. However I do agree with a process but the process comes in sanctification not salvation. Conversion comes in a moment. Becoming like Christ takes a lifetime. I have more I would like to discuss but I prefer to do it off line. Love you my friend. Praying God speaks through you this weekend. Ok, I might want to play a little bit on the other side here my friend. You lay claim to a “process” for conversion but give no biblical backing. I can site several instances throughout the new testament that point the conversion to a moment not a process. The lame man in front of the Temple, the woman at the well, Paul on the road to Damascus just to mention a few. However I do agree with a process but the process comes in sanctification not salvation. Conversion comes in a moment. Becoming like Christ takes a lifetime. I have more I would like to discuss but I prefer to do it off line. Love you my friend. Praying God speaks through you this weekend.

]]> By: Tweets that mention The Conversation: Worldviews « Creating Culture -- Topsy.com http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/comment-page-1/#comment-242 Tweets that mention The Conversation: Worldviews « Creating Culture -- Topsy.com Fri, 22 Jan 2010 15:30:36 +0000 http://www.sammahlstadt.com/?p=1130#comment-242 [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by sammahlstadt, sammahlstadt. sammahlstadt said: what has to change in order to embrace a different worldview? Let's discuss --> http://bit.ly/5AMbUT // warning for a little language... [...] [...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by sammahlstadt, sammahlstadt. sammahlstadt said: what has to change in order to embrace a different worldview? Let's discuss –> http://bit.ly/5AMbUT // warning for a little language… [...]

]]> By: Sam Mahlstadt http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/comment-page-1/#comment-241 Sam Mahlstadt Thu, 21 Jan 2010 01:31:32 +0000 http://www.sammahlstadt.com/?p=1130#comment-241 Nikel, I would say the attempt to move people along with personal accounts and altar calls can potentially do more harm than good. You can't turn a process into a moment. However, like Mary J. Blige, those who have encountered what they believe is God or Jesus, usually want to talk about it. This is seen over and over and over in Scripture. I wouldn't say it's an effective evangelism tool, but it tends to be inevitable. When we try to manipulate it, it becomes a dangerous thing. Nikel, I would say the attempt to move people along with personal accounts and altar calls can potentially do more harm than good. You can’t turn a process into a moment. However, like Mary J. Blige, those who have encountered what they believe is God or Jesus, usually want to talk about it. This is seen over and over and over in Scripture. I wouldn’t say it’s an effective evangelism tool, but it tends to be inevitable. When we try to manipulate it, it becomes a dangerous thing.

]]> By: Nikel http://www.sammahlstadt.com/2010/01/20/the-conversation-worldviews/comment-page-1/#comment-240 Nikel Wed, 20 Jan 2010 19:11:40 +0000 http://www.sammahlstadt.com/?p=1130#comment-240 I agree with Steve's point that pain is often a catalyst for changing a person's worldview one way or the other. I always find it interesting when you see someone on TV (I'm randomly thinking specifically of Mary J. Blige on Oprah) who has gone through some absolutely horrible and painful life experiences who has "found God" at the end of their journey and will not stop insisting that others "find God" as well. If it took all that for you to become a believer, what makes you think I'm going to just because you said so? I've always found this part of "witnessing" or preaching or whatever to be interesting if not ridiculous. Like Sam and Steve have pointed out, the journey one way or the other tends to be a long, difficult, and personal process. Does the church or Mary J. Blige really think that can sincerely and seriously move people along with personal accounts and altar calls? Can these things do more harm than good, Sam? Also, very much enjoyed the following: "Sometimes I wish (likely in vain) these people would act more like what they’re apparently trying to attract: fuck-ups who found their own way to deal with things." I feel the same way. I agree with Steve’s point that pain is often a catalyst for changing a person’s worldview one way or the other. I always find it interesting when you see someone on TV (I’m randomly thinking specifically of Mary J. Blige on Oprah) who has gone through some absolutely horrible and painful life experiences who has “found God” at the end of their journey and will not stop insisting that others “find God” as well. If it took all that for you to become a believer, what makes you think I’m going to just because you said so? I’ve always found this part of “witnessing” or preaching or whatever to be interesting if not ridiculous. Like Sam and Steve have pointed out, the journey one way or the other tends to be a long, difficult, and personal process. Does the church or Mary J. Blige really think that can sincerely and seriously move people along with personal accounts and altar calls? Can these things do more harm than good, Sam?

Also, very much enjoyed the following: “Sometimes I wish (likely in vain) these people would act more like what they’re apparently trying to attract: fuck-ups who found their own way to deal with things.” I feel the same way.

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